Co-authored by: Glen Dalgleish: Parent, Education Advocate, co-Founder “Stop Common Core in New York State”.
David Greene: Teacher, Parent, Author: Doing The Right Thing: A Teacher Speaks, Public Education Advocate. Treasurer Save Our Schools March, Program Consultant WISE Services.
Since the Vergara ruling in California, there has been a lot of discussion about “tenure” but there has also been a lot of different interpretations what it actually means and unfortunately there has also been a lot of misinformation. Glen and I will try and put some more clarity around the subject with this brief description and explanation. We also hope to try and demonstrate its significance in a teacher’s professional life.
What Tenure is:
“Tenure is legal protection granted to some teachers that requires the school district to prove just cause before a termination. Tenure is obtained through a multi-year evaluation process of a teacher in a probationary track position and usually requires a vote of the governing body of the school. Once tenure is granted, a teacher is no longer considered an “at-will” employee (an employee that can be terminated for any reason at any time). Rather, to terminate an employee with tenure, a school district must show that it has “just cause” to do so, typically at a hearing before an arbitrator.”
What Tenure is not: Tenure is NOT a lifetime job guarantee. This is a key point to remember as we believe this where a lot of the misinformation stems from. It is up to administrators, not boards, to make the right decision about tenure at this point. In NYS, they have 3 years to determine the quality of each of their new teachers.
“Merely working in a position that has the potential to become tenured is not a guarantee that a teacher will be granted tenure at the end of the evaluation period.” Notably, as with any adverse employment action, denial of tenure cannot be based on certain factors. These factors include, but are not limited to, age, gender, national origin, religion, disability, race, or sexual orientation. Additionally, tenure cannot be denied based on a reason that is “arbitrary and capricious.” In other words, the school district must have a good faith reason to deny tenure.
Contrary to what some claim, under New York law a teacher’s tenure CAN be revoked. However tenure can only be revoked for “just cause” and the subject teacher is entitled to a hearing. The hearing is sometimes referred to as a “3020-a” hearing because of the section of the education law that governs the process. If the hearing officer determines that “just cause” exists, tenure is revoked and the teacher may be terminated.”
What prevents more poor teachers from being fired? Until 2012, a major factor was the law itself but since then it has been streamlined to speed up the process. However it has been and still is up to school administrators to do their due diligence in using the law to rid their school of teachers unfit to teach. Many delays are caused by the administrators themselves by not proceeding in a timely manner.
Why do Teachers need tenure? Teachers should not be fired for grounds that are “arbitrary and capricious.” Tenure guarantees that teachers will get due process. “Countless teachers from Southern states without tenure are afraid to do the things that New York teachers do all the time – do creative work in classrooms, or write blogs, write letters to the editor, even show up to a rally – because they could lose their jobs for speaking out. All working people should have such protections.”
Why do school districts need tenure? “It is important to dismiss ineffective teachers, but also to attract and retain effective teachers. In fact, eliminating tenure will do little to address the real barriers to effective teaching in impoverished schools, and may even make them worse. The reason has to do with the many ways that the role of teachers in the labor market has changed in recent decades.
When few professions were open to highly skilled women, schools could hire them for low salaries. Now, teaching must compete with other professions. That has made it hard to recruit the best candidates. One of the few things that has always helped to recruit good people into teaching is tenure and the due process guarantee it comes with, especially with lower salaries compared to other professions with both undergraduate and graduate school requirements for permanent certification. As mentioned, this does not mean teachers are never dismissed — it just means it cannot be done without “just cause”.
A recent study discovered…firing bad teachers actually makes it harder to recruit new good ones, since new teachers don’t know which type they will be. That risk can be offset with higher salaries — but that in turn could force increases in class size.
Where have all the potential good new teachers gone? Law, Medicine, Finance, and Business. The real question is how to change that!
The “due process” afforded by tenure does not make teachers more special then other professions that do not enjoy this, it does however make them stronger advocates for our children and allows them to speak up without the fear of unfair retaliation. Something Common Core has taught us is invaluable to all.
Sources:
1. http://www.teachersrightslawyer.com/frequently-asked-questions/
2. http://www.highered.nysed.gov/tcert/ospra/memo04042012.html
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Re this from Mr. Block: ” Education is the only industry where the employee doesn’t think the employer should know their salary.”
Your statement is inflammatory, and you know it. The employer of a teacher is the elected school board. As such, the school board most certainly knows the salary of all teachers they employ. The taxpayer is the employee only indirectly. Too many taxpayers skip a step and rant and rave at teachers when their real problem is with their elected school board members. Taxpayers DO have a right to know salaries, and they can get that information. Do you know the salaries of cops, firefighters, and state employees as well? They are public unions, too.
Your statements re unions are similar. It’s not that national unions TELL local unions what to do. It doesn’t work like that. It’s the LOCAL union that represents and is most important to individual teachers. In order to belong to their, local union, teachers must also be members of the larger state and national union. There is no choice in that. I often wish there were! You must know that many many teachers are fine with their local and state union, but also not so happy with their national union, or at least it’s leadership. It’s not like the national union has really anything to do with local contract negotiations, except VERY indirectly. I think you know this, too, but choose to spin it differently.
Good post until the very last paragraph. Could you revise it for two grammatical errors: misuse of “then” and a run-on sentence. Thanks!
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I think the biggest issue is the validity of grades. An A or an F is nothing more than a letter on a piece of paper (or webpage these days). It only means something because we say that it means something. Because we trust that the grade was issued for all the right reasons (like it was the grade earned due to the work completed and examination upon comparison to some standard) and none of the wrong reasons (like duress, ie ‘don’t give out too many bad grades or you might not get promoted or might get fired). If you think every child that ever got an F came to school the next day and said ‘gee Mr Jones, thanks for holding me accountable to that high standard and giving me that bad grade because I actually deserved it’ then you are out of touch with reality. Most students that get poor grades blame their poor performance upon some other person, usually an authority figure like their teacher.
David,
It looks like you had a positive impact on your students so I applaud you for that. If you are the same David Greene that retired from the Scarsdale school system then it appears you have an annual pension of over $100,000 per the seethroughny website. If that is the case then I must use you as an example of the financial burden on taxpayers caused by the teachers union. In a perfect world it would be great to be able to pay our good teachers a six figure guaranteed annual pension (with free or heavily subsidized healthcare and annual COLA increases) but it’s a fact, not opinion, that this is not financially sustainable over the long term. Teacher pension costs are breaking school budgets in every district in New York. Our local school districts have seen shocking annual pension and healthcare cost increases of 15% – 35%. The percentage of the budgets going to teacher salaries, benefits and pensions have been increasing to such a level that programs for our children are being cut more and more. As a parent and taxpayer that’s not acceptable to me.
Dear Harold,
Thanks for the compliment. Now to clarify.
1. I do not get “over $100,000” in pension.
2. The reason Scarsdale has so many teachers like me is because the parents, taxpayers, and community of Scarsdale have voted time and time again to ATTRACT THE BEST TEACHERS they decide they can afford. They chose “In a perfect world it would be great to be able to pay our good teachers a six figure guaranteed annual pension (with free or heavily subsidized healthcare and annual COLA increases)” for good reason. They value what we do and because it is a very capitalist community understand you get what you pay for.
3. Each school district negotiates its own contract with their teachers. In many districts, not only those as wealthy as Scarsdale (not many are) because the population feels their children’s future is more valuable to them than a “tax burden” they negotiate in good faith and treat their teachers as the highly educated professionals they are.
I don’t know where you are. I wont take the time to look you up as you did me, but in your district, you too get what you pay for…or don’t.
David,
I have found the seethroughny website to be very reliable. It clearly states your pension has been over $100,000 for several years now. You may not want people to know that, maybe because the average Westchester resident earns approximately half of that (without free healthcare and COLA increase I might add) but the facts are the facts. I encourage anyone to visit the website to confirm.
Funny you should mention Scarsdale residents “voting time and time again” to attract the best teachers since they voted down their last school budget. Even the wealthiest towns are saying enough is enough because teacher salaries, benefits and pensions are taking more and more money away from our children every year.
As far as “you get what you pay for”…many school districts across the country are doing just as well educating their children as Westchester schools do….but they are doing it at literally half the cost per student. We all know the problem we have in New York is that for decades the unions have purchased the politicians and have controlled most school boards. It’s not a level playing field for the parents and taxpayers and the unions have taken advantage of that as much as possible.
The bottom line here is that the current financial situation isn’t sustainable, fact not opinion. Eventually New York will go the way of Detroit, Illinois, etc. where guaranteed pensions will no longer be “guaranteed” (per the Supreme Court) and retired teachers will have to feel the pain the taxpayers of New York have been feeling for years.
Calm down. No reason for paranoia
It can say what it wants, but that is not what I receive. DO you want to check my tax records too, nosy?
The only budget they have voted down in the past twenty years was last year, not this years, and that was a protest in the way it was brought out.
Don’t stereotype Westchester schools. Scarsdale schools are not Westchester schools which range in wealth from Mt Vernon to Yorktown to Scarsdale and Chappaqua. Each chooses it’s own values and subsequent needs.
Unions are local. Each negotiates with their own school district so stop the conspiracy theories.
If you don’t like NY, then move to Mississippi where you get what YOU want and the worst schools in the nation.
David,
I see the “moderator” never let one of my posts go through. I guess the moderator isn’t very moderate when it comes to deciding what gets posted. So much for free speech.
As far as being “nosy” is concerned….are you saying taxpayers shouldn’t be aware of what their hard-earned taxes are paying for? Just write the check and don’t ask any questions huh? Education is the only industry where the employee doesn’t think the employer should know their salary. Bizarre. Luckily the NY Supreme Court unanimously agreed that taxpayers have an obvious right to know what they are paying for.
Conspiracy theory? All the unions are local? Per the NYSUT website…”NYSUT is a federation of approximately 1,300 local unions representing 600,000 members statewide. We elect the people who lead our local unions and or state and national affiliates…..More than 95 percent of the teachers in New York’s public elementary and secondary schools are members of NYSUT”.
Last but not least….you can choose Mississippi as an example but I can choose many other places in the country that educate children as well as the best schools in New York….and at half the cost.
Does this post make the cut Mr. Moderator?
Harold. Thats their choice. I don’t mind discourse, but I would never look into your personal life (including salary benefits etc.) regardless of the public information act.
You do not employ me unless I work in your district.. The people of the districts I worked in did, and they have copies of each salary schedule available.
Do you know what a federation is? an organization that is made by loosely joining together smaller organizations” with the Stress on LOOSELY. There is no STATE WIDE contract negotiated by NYSUT. Personally I sees major problem with your broad stroke definitions that frankly look very wikipedia like. Show me your sources is what I would tell my students.
ANd as for your last comment… Give me some examples. How will you decide what criteria to use to show they “educate children as well” as NY? And finally, which actual districts are you going to compare? Will your evidence and sources be valid and reliable? Will you look for correlation or causation? How will you remove the other variables in your study?
By the way that process what we teach in the best NYS school districts with the best teachers.
Hmmm… you don’t think the NYSUT would ever collect the contract data from all the “local” unions to help ratchet up the salaries and benefits of all the “local” unions in negotiations with school districts. Nah. Like you said – they’re “local” unions. Also – I cut and pasted my NYSUT statements directly from the NYSUT website….not Wickipedia.
There are several metrics by which you can measure schools…..many reputable sources put out school rankings every year. By the way – the funniest comment I ever heard regarding student improvement was from a union rep that said to disregard the typical measurements for student improvement and instead “look in the students eyes” to see if they have improved. Ha….don’t test them! Just look in their eyes at the end of the year!
I was going to respond to your last sentence but I’m not totally sure what this means: “By the way that process what we teach in the best NYS school districts with the best teachers.”
NYSUT can collect all the data it wants and put on its website what it wants, but from the ground up, no local negotiation I know of ever got approval from NYSUT. That metaphor simply means some things can’t be measured quantitatively, they are measured qualitatively or by their work on the type of projects and class participation that expresses true understanding, not just how much someone knows, but what they can do with it…applied knowledge.
and that last sentence had a missing word. By the way that process IS what we teach in the best NYS school districts with the best teachers.
Thank you again.
David,
It has been an interesting discussion. I’m sure there will be more in the future.
Take care.
Unfortunately, too many people are afraid of discussion.
Dear Moderator, I noticed my comments from 1:51 PM are still waiting for a review but the comments by David Greene from 2:53 PM have already been posted. Am I paranoid or is there some bias here?
Harold, you say such pensions are unacceptable and unsustainable. It appears that you are accepting the world view of the top one percent of Americans. It is only unsustainable if you do not create a true progressive income tax on those who can easily afford to pay a fair share of their wealth. Where was your concern when our economy was tanked by the one percent in 2008 and the Federal government paid tens of billions to keep certain banking and investment houses afloat only to see CEOs of these companies give themselves additional bonus’ and even pensions in, not the thousands, but the millions? Here were bankers and hedge fund operators whose greedy decisions, costing many their life savings, get rewarded with Federal money for their own enrichment while the lives of many others were destroyed without consequence.
Yes, I am retiring in four days with a nice pension after 36 years of hard work. Our pensions represent a social contract. We earned our pensions as highly educated individuals (we paid for our own education) who would accept a lower salary than we would possibly get in the private section for a future benefit. In turn, we would work to educate your children to the best of our ability. Many of us have two Master’s Degrees, as well as additional post-graduate work to hone our skills as educators. A teacher’s work does not end at 3:00. To gather materials to prepare effective lessons takes hours of research and planning. If you are a high school teacher–especially in New York City–every test, homework assignment, writing piece means the grading of 150 papers a day. Special Education teachers, such as I am, need to either develop or find enough material to differentiate instruction for individual students on a daily basis. In addition, many of us, spend thousands of our own money on materials and supplies to help our students.
Finally, I wish I was receiving your fantasy pension. My pension will be less than $100,000 and I will have to pay significantly more for health coverage in retirement–approximately $3000 a year in drug coverage. As for this COLA raise, that is a fantasy. Teachers only get COLA increases if enacted by the State Legislature. So few COLAs have been enacted over the last 20-30 years that teachers who retired at those times are very close to living in poverty. Most teachers work hard, dedicate their lives to children, and play by the rules of honesty and fairness. It is only right that we have a measure of dignity in our remaining years on this earth.
Instead of pitting the teachers against everyone else, you should be supporting decent pensions for all Americans so that old age can be a time of dignity and not eventual poverty or dependence on others. We are not your economic enemy but the one-percent at the top.
Thank you for your reasonable and rational response
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Another good read on Tenure…
Reblogged this on DCGEducator: Doing The Right Thing and commented:
Now Co- authored
There was a first grade teacher at my son’s school that became mentally ill. After 15 years of teaching at the same school, she started teaching things that were grossly wrong and according to other parents, her lessons were wrong. Homework was graded wrong and her comments to parents were “off”.
How long of a process do you think the “3020-a” process was? How long do you think it took for them to let her go and hire someone else for her first grade class? how much of the school districts resources were used to go through this process?
I am an employee at a hospital. I treat people who are sick. I treat children and infants who are sick. Would you not be appalled if I became unable to do my job and the hospital had to go through an “arbitration” battle for a year and spend tens of thousands of dollars to have me removed? And during that time I was allowed to continue to work with your sick child? Sure, the hospital is able to fire me, but after how many children’s lives I affected?
I don’t think anyone should be wrongfully terminated. That’s what the NLRB (National Labor Relations Board) is for.
What you describe was the fault of her supervisors. There are many ways for a teacher to be taken out of the classroom while the hearing process takes place. The basic difference stands. A teacher’s first amendment rights are the issue.
Tenure probably does give teachers independence to speak out about troubling matters and to challenge administration on issues and probably curriculum. I get it.
I just don’t think it’s necessary.
I don’t work in the school district.
I appreciate the discussion.
Ina perfect world, yes, but it was made necessary by those in schools and districts who wanted to limit teachers in their creativity and in their use of first amendment rights.
I wish to challenge your notion that ineffective teachers only exist in poor urban districts when you state “Most significantly, it is really only in poor urban schools that the vast majority of “ineffective” teachers exist for various reasons. Suburban parents should rest assured that in middle class and upper class public schools this is almost a non-issue.”
Where do you get this idea? You imply that because poor urban schools perform poorly that the teachers there are “ineffective”. This idea is the very reason that the judge ruled against tenure in California in the Vergara decision. But it doesn’t have any basis in truth. Effective and ineffective teachers exist in both poor and wealthy schools. The problem comes down to using test scores to determine the effectiveness of teachers. In reality test scores only show that poor kids perform poorly on standardized tests. This has little to nothing to do with the effectiveness of the teachers but rather the failings of our society to make sure that all children are prepared for school and have enough food and shelter to arrive at school prepared to learn.
Please read the section carefully. “Most significantly, it is really only in poor urban schools that the vast majority of “ineffective” teachers exist for various reasons.” It says the vast majority ..not that they ONLY exist in poor urban areas…and for various reasons.
Second. As a person who split his 38 year a career in both the poor urban south Bronx and schools in suburban westchester, I agree that: “Effective and ineffective teachers exist in both poor and wealthy schools.” When I referred to VARIOUS REASONS in that opening statement (again you misread that) I meant exactly this: The problem comes down to using test scores to determine the effectiveness of teachers. In reality test scores only show that poor kids perform poorly on standardized tests. This has little to nothing to do with the effectiveness of the teachers but rather the failings of our society to make sure that all children are prepared for school and have enough food and shelter to arrive at school prepared to learn.”
However these were not the subject of the piece. We actually agree.
Very well-said! I have taught at a Title I school for over nine years now, and I can honestly say that we have some of the best teachers in the county. Our teachers would probably beat others in any high economic school. A teacher who can teach effectively, manage classroom behavior and the many other demands that take place in a Title I school would be able to teach anywhere; however, it is not the same for a teacher who has never stepped foot in a classroom with 65 % or higher on free or reduced lunch. It is a whole different world, and it is one I wouldn’t trade for more money. The rewards I receive from my students and parents on a daily basis outweigh all the money in the world.
It takes very special teachers in the lower economic schools. I am not saying I am one of them, but looking at my results over the years, my students many successes and the relationships that. Have blossomed out of it…I would say that I am.
Sorry for ranting, but my students and families mean a lot to me and for someone to state that only ineffective teachers teach at lower economic schools is an outright lie.
Thank you!
As an educator in Florida, tenure is a concept of the past. I find it interesting that in NY tenure had to be voted on. That was not the case in Florida, or at least not in my district. If you worked three years, you received tenure at the recommendation of the Principal, and it was pretty much understood three years of service led to tenure, no questions asked…and the Principal of the school could have changed three times in three years…a problem indeed.
I sit the fence on tenure a little. I definitely see the benefit of tenure, but I have also seen the down side. My experience has been the union tends to defend teachers in instances where they should not be defended. I think that is the issue that sends the public spiraling. Don’t get me wrong, I have also seen the flip side, where everyone knows an administrator is not effective and nothing is done. I am just not sure that tenure is the real issue…I show up to work and give 110% everyday. I build relationships with my students and faculty and I have high expectations.
Our children deserve the absolute best in education, but I also believe that as long as the demise of the family continues we are going to see continued struggles in education. Tenure is not going to bring teachers to the profession. Folks are not coming into the profession because the pay is low in comparison to other degree requiring professions, and let’s not forget the challenges that teachers face. I have been hit, kicked, spit on, cussed out, chairs thrown at me, only to be told it is a “manifestation of his or her disability”, and they are returning to your classroom day after day regardless. That being said, regardless that a child is disrupting the class and your other students are not learning, you are still required to show growth in your students. This is hard for teachers to process and accept…understandably!
When a person enters the profession of teaching I truly believe they are entering to make a difference in the world. Many times what they find is very different from what they expected, and that is at a suburban school. Inner city school teachers are going to continue to face obstacles some of us could never imagine. Tenure may not be as necessary if support from administration, school district and the DOE are provided. The obstacles teachers face vary from area to area, and I believe the powers that be need to understand that one size will not fit all in education, and throwing more money at the issue is not the answer…teachers need support, flexibility, understanding, and let’s face it better pay would help…those items in place may just take away the concern over not having tenure…just my thoughts.
FYI, unions are required by law to represent any teacher in a bargaining unit. As a former member of a state licensing body for administrators and teachers which also investigated possible legal infractions, I can say that due process is very important, because administrator training is not always the best, and administrators can be guilty of capricious and arbitrary behavior towards school employees. All employees need some kind of fair representation.
Deanna, Of course I knew that. I spent 38 years teaching in 3 districts in NYS. It was too much to add to this particular post. This post was an attempt to provide basic information about tenure to many who don’t really know what it is.
Thank you for your comment. I agree with what you are saying and have seen the flip side…poor teachers and poor administrators. I was a building union representative when I was a teacher, so I agree with representation. I think tenure is a casualty because both sides-union and administration have had people that have failed to see the big picture…why we do what we do…for the students.
Reblogged this on NYtechprepper and commented:
This is excellent!
My own life experience describes in anecdote the gist of your article. . I started 36 years ago in a high needs school in an area of New York City where at least 80% of the households were on public assistance. More than that, most families were in survival mode. Half my kids did not know whether they would have a roof over their heads or a meal the next day. I taught students who were learning disabled and emotionally disturbed. Most teachers did not last more than a few months. The basis of success was being able to control such students, not academic progress. I was left to my own devices. I had no support or even material. Not a single supervisor came into my classroom the first year I was a teacher because I was able, through my own study and intuition, to control these kids. I got this first job because the previous teacher never came back to the school after intruders broke into the school and robbed her at gunpoint in front of the class the week before. Of course, I was not told this until a year later. I came in early every day, bought my own material, and developed an effective behavior modification program. I individualized instruction as much as I could–oops differentiated in today’s jargon. I worked well into the night every day creating lesson plans (which were collected each week at that time). The plans were collected but really never reviewed. When collected, the AP would put a star on a chart in his office that I handed in the plans.
Did I help these students learn? Some, but not enough. If there was stability in a student’s life–a parent that worked, was not addicted to dope, was not a criminal or did not have too many children, there was a chance. Of the fifty or so special education students I taught during the first six years of my career, I am in touch with only two who have made it into the economic mainstream. I know of at least five who went to jail. And one of those shot a cop in the back. At least three became pregnant before the age of 16, and one died of a sexually transmitted disease before her sixteenth birthday. Two of my students became pushers and probably died decades ago.
Somehow, with fortitude, I made it because I did not want to fail and really cared. I was thrown in the proverbial pool unable to swim and managed to survive. During those years, I was passed over for better jobs because of my strong management skills. I was passed over for a resource room job because, as the supervisor said to me, “Mrs. *** is such weak teacher and is doing more harm than good while you are such a wonderful asset to all your your students.” Either teachers quit, were given less challenging classes if weak, or were given more challenging students if strong. The bottom line was that each class would have a body that kept these students in line. If you survived three years, you would get a letter from the Board of Education saying you now how tenure. In the 1970s and 80s, whether students really learned in such schools did not matter. It surely did not matter to the wealthy at that time. They could care less.
Now, 36 years later I will be leaving as a highly effective teacher in a nice middle class school district. I still teach learning disabled children and even some children that have some emotional challenges. However, I am in a school where more than half passed last year’s common core state assessments. I make good progress with my mostly Asian special education students with supportive families. And of course, under any VAM system, if you get a special education student to make progress, extra credit comes your way. Obviously, 36 years taught me to be a better teacher, but where I teach absolutely plays a giant role in my success as an educator. High praise was given to me two nights ago at my retirement dinner, but in my heart I know I would not have lasted 36 years if I would have remained teaching in that unsupported high needs school.
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My journey is not unlike yours. I taught at A.E. Stevenson HS in the Bronx for 16 years and only left because our third principal was incompetent and as we found out a thief. After having two great leaders as principal who gave us free reign to create, I saw the handwriting on the wall and left for the suburbs. I am still in contact regular with a number of my students from as far back as the class of 1974. My last 22 years were spent teaching in 2 Westchester schools where I continued to teach Social Studies, coach, advise, write creative curricula etc.
Of course ( sarcasm here) a much better teacher in the suburbs because my kids regents and AP scores were higher.